Jen: We are starting to get back going again. I want to welcome the students from Baltimore School for the Blind, I'm so excited to have all of you. Next up, we will have Margaret Carruthers, a science writer here at Space Telescope Science Institute, she is going to talk about the incredibly detailed descriptions of the James Webb first images, referred to as "alt text," alternative text. It was pretty big news when they first came out, there were articles on NPR, "Washington Post," a lot of people were talking about this alt text, Margaret is one of the writers that worked on the image descriptions and she will be sharing her process and how she goes about writing those images for the James Webb telescope. There you go. Thank you.

Margaret: Okay, this is working okay? Everyone can hear me? Thank you, Jen. Welcome to the students that just came in. I am Margaret Carruthers, I'm a science writer here at Space Telescope, we are going to be talking about the text descriptions that we developed for the first images and spectra that came out from the James Webb telescope last July. I'm going to talk a bit about the -- a tiny bit about the telescope for those of you who are not familiar with it, a bit about the images and the whole news package that we created. I will talk about how we went about writing and developing those text descriptions and will give you some samples. And then I will give you some of our top tips or things that we learned along the way in doing this. Also, I want to say this is the first time -- I've been aware -- of presenting to a group who is not able to see -- not everybody can see the slides I am presenting. I will try to be aware of that and try to remember to describe the slides adequately. Many apologies if I don't. Please raise your hand if you are like hey, what was that? I'm going to do my best. This is a new thing for me. All right. Our first slide, beautiful picture of the Carina nebula, where the stars are forming and the name of the talk, "Illuminating the Universe with Accessible Text Descriptions." For those that were not here for Marc Postman's intro, we are looking at telescopes that look out into space, the Hubble space telescope, I have a photograph of the Hubble space telescope orbiting Earth, the James Webb telescope, an illustration of that, orbiting the sun and the Roman Space Telescope, still probably in some hanger somewhere. [Laughs] And a photograph of the people here at Space Telescope Science Institute, celebrating after -- in front of the building after the day the images were released. We manage the telescopes and in our office of public outreach, we tell people about the discoveries. As Marc let you all know before, we have four strategic goals and I will focus on the third one, making the world's astronomical information accessible to all. That means a lot of things. As a science writer, it means taking a complex concept and explaining it such that somebody who does not have expertise in that can understand it, right? We all have the capacity to understand this information. We just don't all have the prior knowledge that is needed, right? It also means distributing that information. Not just "we have information," but we have to get it out there. A lot like print or meeting people face-to-face, we still do that, but now, we can distribute things online and really reach a huge number of people that way. Increasingly, the accessibility also means reaching even broader audiences, audiences who had come in many cases, been neglected in the past. Those that had been visually impaired or otherwise, they lacked access to the visuals we had. Maybe that was a technical or physical problem -- Barrier. Okay, let me go back a little bit. [Laughs] In the office of public outreach, we've got about 50 science communication specialists of all realms, okay? Science writers, I am just 1 of 7 or eight science writers, we have graphic designers, some are here in the audience. [Laughs] And we've got education specialists, astronomers, software developers, curators, motion designers, animators, the whole wide variety of people and they all contribute to making this astronomy accessible. Okay, the James Webb space telescope, what I have here is an illustration of the James Webb space telescope and also an illustration -- a drawing illustrating the variety of science that Webb was designed to do. It's a million miles away from us, looking toward all of these galaxies that have now been seen. Trying to find out how these galaxies formed, looking at galaxies that are interacting with each other to see how they evolve over time, looking at stars, just warming, baby stars. And stars that are dying. Maybe exploding. It's looking at planets. It is not looking at Earth or the planets toward the sun but it's looking at some of the planets in our solar system like Mars, Jupiter and it is also looking at planets way, way far away, orbiting other stars, exoplanets. Astronomers are super excited, as they should be, we are excited to tell you all about it. All right, okay. Webb launched in December of 2021 and it spent about six months controlled, by the way, at Space Telescope, people upstairs telling us what to do, that he ready to collect the data and start doing science. On July 12th, last July, we were finally ready to reveal this data to the public and also to the astronomy community. July 12th, we released -- really, it was a set of six articles about five different targets that Webb looked at. This information, this outreach was intended to show the variety of science that Webb can do, all of the exciting things so that people understand everything that Webb is doing. Fortunately, it did not disappoint. A whole lot of other things you can hear about how it is exceeding all expectations. I am really here to talk to you about the news package and how we got that information out. What we have on the screen are six screenshots of the headlines and images, the first images and spectra, we had an overview article, an article about galaxies colliding, black holes, a dying star, the southern ring nebula, we had one about a field of galaxies, very distant, where new stars, baby stars and an atmosphere of stent planets. And you will see that some of these -- most of these first images are photographs. But we also have what is called spectra, you take life and spread it out, you can see all of the separate colors. In visible light, you can see the rainbow. We are talking about invisible colors but a spectra allows scientists to look at bright colors with different patterns, to show what properties are made of. We are trying to make this accessible, not hoarding all of the information. Our news package -- what we have on the screen, by the way, sorry, we have four screenshots. One of the home page, and article about the Carina nebula, the cosmic cliffs, the star-forming region, a screenshot of the article written about it, a screenshot of the caption to one of the images and a screenshot to one of the social media posts, we had images, spectra, articles, in-depth articles, what is this? What did Webb see? And a caption of the image going into more detail about what is there. Social media, part of that to get everybody excited very quickly and come find out more information. All right, one extra component here that we have for the first images, it was this ALT text or alternative text, text descriptions of the images. The images and spectra are a really important component of communicating the science, the wonder, the excitement of the Webb space telescope. If you cannot access those images for whatever reason, it's not fair. We want to make sure people can really get the most out of this information. And with all of the captions, we wrote descriptions of the images. I have another screenshot of the image of the Carina nebula, a description of alt text, I will not read, just letting you know that it is there, and image description that comes up on social media, now we have image descriptions and a description from our thumbnail image, to show you that we write different types of descriptions, depending on the purpose. Okay, alt text is a description -- you code it into a field, sorry, developer people, I'm not saying it right, okay -- [Laughs] Usually there is a limit on that, a character limit, you can only put so much information in there. But sometimes we need more information. We also wrote extended descriptions because some of our graphics are complicated. What I have on the screen are two graphics that are more complicated, one that shows a sliver of an image of lots of galaxies and a pullout of one of those galaxies so you can see it up close. And then a graph that shows different elements that are in that galaxy, which is crazy that we can see that and it is 13.1, light that was given off 13.1 billion years ago. Yes, exactly, that's what we all felt. Yes. Anyway, this is a pretty complex graphic. We have a long description here. Another graphic we have over here, I will go into more detail on that one, it is what we call a transmission spectrum. It's a graph showing the brightness of light on different wavelengths and what molecules are on this planet's atmosphere. Great, okay, I'm going to talk a little bit about the process we went through to develop the text descriptions. And the approach. This is not a new thing, having alt text, I do not know how long it's been around, someone probably does but we've always had this and in our system and on our web sites, it's a requirement, you cannot publish an image without it. However, the way we are approaching it is different. At one time, we had a very limited character count. Maybe 60 characters or 120. That is less than an old tweet, right? Oh, sorry, I am echoey. It's not enough. You can say oh, pretty picture and that is pretty much all you can say, right? It's not enough. The other thing, we wanted to make this part of our process, not an afterthought. Like oh, I've got to fill this in. We really wanted to make these descriptions great. We wanted to share this excitement, these beautiful images and spectra. We did a lot of experimentation, we worked with existing imagery from Hubble and did a lot of writing, reviewing each other's writing, working with consultants from the blind and visually impaired community to provide a lot of really important feedback. One time we met with them and I read aloud a description I wrote. What do you think, does this work? They were able to provide feedback like yes, I can imagine that or no, that makes no sense. That's really important. We adjusted our technical constraints and what I mean by that is we took away -- we increased the amount of space we had for that alt text field to 1,000 characters or so. That's pretty good, you know? That's a pretty good number. Thank you to the people who did that. And we began developing standard styles and guidelines to make it easier for us. A lot of times, writing this stuff is about making choices. We spend a lot of time thinking should I do it this way, this way? Make the choice, figure out how to do it and then focus on the content. Approach. Again, rather than doing alt text descriptions later, this is part of a news package now, it's part of our writing. We have our article, caption, it's part of the whole thing. We think -- really, we are focusing on the audience needs rather than being like oh, I will check that off, you know, I wrote and asked in that field and now it's done. That does happen and you might come across things like that. In other alt text, not ours. We put the alt text descriptions through a full editorial process. This is another important thing, especially when talking about science and technology imagery. If you're talking about everyday photos, a picture of a dog playing with a ball, that is pretty standard, right? But some of these images, these graphics are not familiar, right? They show crazy stuff, they are complex. We had to research, we had to draft, these went through subject matter experts, editors, you know? Accessibility experts. We have one of our staff members is visually impaired and he reviewed stuff. We make sure it goes through the full editorial process and that's really important. You all are relying on this, right? It needs to be right and clear. We want to treat it like any other science communication. Clear, doing its job. Okay, sorry. I'm just going to share with you a few examples. This one, what we have here -- oh, by the way, the previous slide had text on it. There were no pictures. This slide, what we have here -- on the right, I'm going to read to you what we have from the text. I have it, written by one of our writers here, Claire. First of all, I'm going to read this description and then I want everyone to listen carefully and then I will tell you -- Webb's first deep field, SMACS 0723, that is the title. "Thousands of small galaxies appear across this view. Their colors of fairy. Some are shades of orange, while others are white. Most appear as fuzzy ovals, but a few have distinct spiral arms. In front of the galaxies are several foreground stars, most appear blue, and the bright stars have diffraction spikes. Forming an 8-pointed star shape. There are also many thin, long, orange arcs that curve around the center of the image." There are two people at least, maybe three in the audience that are probably familiar with this image because I see them with jackets, this image on their jackets. [Laughs] You can get images, by the way, but I want to tell you something about this, Claire can describe this beautifully but she thought about what the purpose of the image was, how does it make you feel, what is the image convey? I want to give a shout out to her because Claire found out at the last minute that this image was going to be unveiled by President Biden. While she is writing the caption, oh, my god, no pressure. Right? I think she did a beautiful job. Okay, second story of alt text development. This image, the cosmic cliffs of the Carina nebula. This -- we were under a tight time constraints. We had a lot to do and we had to get the stuff ready to be out, July 12th was the day. It wasn't going to change. So I'm meeting with my supervisor, hiding in the back here. I was like, we have so much to do. He asked how he could help. I have to write this alt text but it's so beautiful, I don't even know where to start, how can I do this justice? I don't even know what to do. I am a writer, a science writer, describing this? Oh. He said "let me take a shot," thank you. Beautiful, what he came up with. We did a little bit of editing but I will tell you, and John is a designer. He's not a writer but he is a writer -- he doesn't know that. Okay, let me read this out loud, this got a lot of press too. "the image is divided horizontally by an undulating line between a cloud scape forming a nebula along the bottom portion and a comparatively clear upper portion. Speckled across both portions as a star field, showing innumerable stars of many sizes. The smallest of these are small, distant, and faint points of light. The largest of these appear larger, closer, brighter, and were fully resolved with 8-point diffraction spikes. The upper portion of the images bluish, and has wispy translucent cloudlike streaks rising from the nebula below. The oranges cloudy formation in the bottom half that varies in density and ranges from translucent to opaque. The stars vary in color, the majority of which, have a blue or orange hue. The cloudlike structure of the nebula contains ridges, peaks, and valleys, and appearance very similar to a mountain range. Three long diffraction spikes from the top right edge of the image suggest the presence of a large star just out of view." The third example I want to give you is of an illustration. And I'm sharing this one -- I will describe it in a second. I'm sharing this illustration to tell you that writing these descriptions does a lot for the writer. We do it for the audience but the writer gets a lot out of it. What I got out of this one was that this image here shows -- it's an illustration, illustrating the variety of science that Webb can do. The designer here is Liz. When I first saw it, I was like that is beautiful, gorgeous, I will have a T-shirt and bedspread of that. But it was not until I started describing it that I realized how smart it is, right? This is not just a pretty image, it's meaningful. I start writing about it. Oh, my gosh, look at this. Across the middle is a jagged line. That represents a spectrum. She's got color gradation from red on the left to purple on the right and that is representative of the spectrum too, the rainbow spectrum. In the middle is a hexagonal window, almost. And within that hexagon are illustrations of different space objects. We've got a planet, a spiral galaxy, red dots to represent distances to galaxies, something shooting material out, I think that is an active galactic nucleus or a star, I don't know. But it's exciting, right? And we've got the 8-pointed diffraction pattern for the stars. I am writing this and I'm like, oh, my gosh, this is the most awesome illustration of Webb science. So smart and beautiful. I got a lot out of that. I just needed to share that. All right, so, let me just check -- okay. What we have here, images are not the only thing we did. We do a lot of complex graphics. On this slide, I'm not going to go into great detail except to say that each one contains a combination of images, maps, graphs, they all are very rich in information. They take a while -- they are all accessible, you can understand but they take a while to think about. You have to spend some time with them, right? We needed to write long descriptions of these to make sure. Part of our thing with Webb was getting across the idea that Webb is working well and telling us a lot and it's rigorous, right? We aren't just making this stuff up. This is some heavy information here. To do this, I'm going to focus on -- sorry, how does this work? I'm going to focus on one of these graphics. A transmission spectrum of the exoplanet WASP-96 b. This is telling us that there is water in this atmosphere, okay? The graph has a lot of information on it and we wanted to figure out how to communicate that. One thing to know about alt text for all of these scientists thinking about how they're going to do this, it's part of a larger package. These are just screenshots of the article and the caption they go with this image. All easily accessible on a screen reader. We are filling a gap. What is this graphic giving us that we cannot get otherwise? When we did this, again, thinking about alt text from the beginning, I was a writer on this and I worked really closely with a subject expert on here, Nestor. He reviewed my work and such so I understood it completely. But it requires a lot of understanding of the graphical representation, right? You have to know about it to write the alt text but you don't have to do it on your own. Here is the short alt text for this. "Graphic titled hot gas giant exoplanet WASP-96 b atmosphere opposition, single object slitless spectroscopy," the graphic shows the transmission spectrum of the hot gas giant exoplanet captured using Webb's single-object slitless Spector's copy with an illustration of the planet and its star in the background. The data points are plotted on a graph of amount of light blocked in parts per million versus wavelength of light in microns. A curvy blue line represents a best-fit model. Four prominent peaks visible in the data and model are labeled "water, each two oh it does not really get across the depth of the data here. I'm not going to read this description out loud but what I will say, but we did was we described the axes very carefully, the rains, labels, we describe the data, not to point by point but enough that the patterns are understandable. We describe the air bars and how they vary, how the model relates to the data, how many data points there are, 141, et cetera, et cetera. It's intended to communicate that this is -- we have a lot of data and it's really good. And I can tell you a lot. Okay, you might be thinking, especially if you are a writer or an astronomer, oh, my god, that's so much work. How my going to fit it in? Good news, once you get a structure or pattern for how you want to describe things, you can replicate that. What I have on the screen are four different graphics, I have screenshots of the extended descriptions. Well, we now have very similar graphics that we have been creating for all of the new data and we've basically used the same template. Like a fill in the blank, you know? The X X axis shows this. Just figuring out a good method or good overall framework for describing things, okay? That's why I had this recycling icon on here as well. I am big into the reduce, reuse, recycle. With that in mind, just so you guys no, we have these screenshots, when we did these projects, they were released as accessible PDFs. We now have -- you can click somewhere and get the extended description, the alt text, you can use this, astronomers, you can copy this, fill in the right numbers so it's obvious you did not just copy and paste, right? This is free to use, all public domain, okay? You're not cheating by doing that. Okay, the response, first images of spectra from Webb went all around the world, like, pretty much everywhere. I think there were more than 20,000 articles. Our spreadsheet broke. Excel wouldn't go that far. What I have on the screen are a bunch of front pages showing the images all in different -- we have some in English and some in German, I don't know Japanese, images of the Carina nebula, the southern ring, all around the world. This was wonderful. But... What was perhaps more exciting, because it was so unexpected, was the response we got about the alt text. We wrote this alt text in extended description because we knew it was important. We wanted to. We didn't really have any concept -- I think some of us knew statistically, oh, there's this many people who could use this. But I did not -- personally speaking -- I don't think I had a real understanding of who this was benefiting. Suddenly, Twitter kind of "exploded," if that is the Twittery word for it, people were talking about it. I mean, look at this. This is just lovely. These are screenshots of articles and tweets and stuff about the alt text, okay? The unexpected star of NASA's images, et cetera. The tweets were the ones that I think got it started, sharing it out and connecting us with our audience, right? As a blind person who has had dreams of doing astronomy since I was six, thank you to whoever not only remembered to write alt text for this but did so in such a beautiful way. I will likely never know who you are but you touched my heart on this day, alt text writer good doesn't that give you chills? This is Claire's text here, previewed by POTUS. If someone ever tells you that alt text isn't important, show them NASA's alt text for the Webb telescope. They are able to convey the wonders and beauty in their words, making these breathtaking views accessible. If that's not the most wonderful feedback, whenever I'm feeling down, I just look at this slide. What I wanted to say about the impact of this, it's not just that it makes us feel good, this had an enormous impact on the way we are doing our work and what I mean by that is when this happens, suddenly we were like, we want to do it -- we knew it was important. It wasn't like we were going to just stop doing it but suddenly, all of us, oh, my gosh, you can imagine our audience, they need it and want it. We will write it even better. We will make sure everything we're doing has it, going back into our archives, we have people focused on this, a summer intern coming in, working on the Hubble all text, that is 33 years worth of stuff, right? That's had a great impact. What I hope and what I think it's happening, other organizations are seeing it and being like, maybe we should start doing this? I'm feeling left out of the party here. It's pretty fun. Okay, 11:30, great. I will give you top tips, does that sound good? None of us -- I don't have a PhD in accessibility but I do have a lot of experience on this project. I'm going to share -- our writers do too. We worked on a style guide, what are some good practices, ways you can approach? A lot of times, it's a little bit intimidating. One of the ironic things is, having done such a good job, that can also make it feel intimidating to people. How can I ever write something that great? Or how could I do it in this way? Anyway, first of all, you've got to think about the purpose of the image, is it there to convey that information or give a visual cue? Identify your constraints, often times, you might have technical constraints. This is, like many other types of writing -- one thing to remind yourself, describing visual scenes. All the radio and podcasts, all description just using words. When you think of it like that, I can lift some of the anxiety off of you, right? Another thing, simple alt text is better than no alt text, you want it to be accurate. Try not to stress too much if you don't have time or not sure what to do. This circular shaped region, et cetera, I find it useful to get the big picture first and then zoom in on the details. Sometimes it's harder to orient because people have to do that, okay, how did that fit together in their head? Separately? Include relevant details. By that, obviously an image -- if you have 1,000 pixels, there is a thousand pieces of information there. Plus, all of the relationships. Include relevant details. Science stuff, connect it to the science. Here's a picture and it has a horizontal, cylindrical black shape and four cylinders descending down vertically from that central cylinder and you are like, oh, my gosh, what? I could have just said "it's a picture of a dog," okay? Similar in science. You might want to say that it's a picture of a planetary nebula and then describe it so those that know what a planetary nebula look like can immediately imagine. Be careful about misconceptions. That can be hard. That's one reason why you want other people reviewing it. And also remember that the reader -- you don't have to do everything. If you are stuck, ask John, he will write it for you. [Laughs] Okay, pretend you are on the phone. In fact, get on the phone, call up your mom and be like "let me just described this to you," it works. I have done that. Pretend you are describing it to an artist over the phone who has to create the rich for you. Don't worry about the length to start. I like to write a lot. I write it all and then I cut back. That's one strategy. Another one that works well, look with your eyes, not your brain. What they mean by that is if you know what something is, you might take shortcuts into explaining something, shortcuts that are not useful to the audience, right? Take yourself out of the image and describe it. Quality assurance. This is an important thing. Okay, give it to someone who hasn't seen the image. This works really well. In fact, the other day, I sent it to somebody -- our news chief and she was like "it looks fine but you got left and right mixed up." I do this a lot. She knew it because she read the description, try to imagine in her head and then looked at it. Oh, I imagined this. So. By the way, for you all who are not seeing the screen, I have these tips on the screen. A visual describing. It's just spot art. Definitely, if you are not an expert on the subject matter, have a subject matter expert review it. When you are writing for new images, wait until your image is almost done -- in the alt text, right -- we come across errors because you are looking at it with a very close eye, I'm going to go real quick here. Efficiency, make templates, modify existing, make yourself a style guide, that kind of thing. Let's see, okay, final thing I wanted to say. First of all, this is the image I got, the James Webb space telescope illustration. The same illustration before, just so you know, none of our very talented designers were involved in this kindergarten cut and paste of Webb images. [Laughs] Telescope and many scientific instruments are accessibility tools. A telescope shows a slight that is too dim, too far away, small, for anybody, any human eye to see. Now it Webb and a lot of other telescopes show us forms of light that no human eyes can detect. Webb is detecting infrared light, Hubble looks at visible and ultraviolet light, and there are lots of other telescopes. They are collecting and helping us analyze light that no one can see without these tools. So this is just a demonstration here. What I have are three different views of the pillars of creation, on the left is what our eyes would see in this infrared, nothing. In the middle, a translation, showing some of the light that Webb can detect, one color, so to speak. And on the right is a full-color composite image. Part of our work is translating this into full-color images, invisible light into visible color images. And then one extra step on the road to making this all accessible. So, thank you! I don't have any time for questions, but... [Laughs]

Jen: Thank you so much. We are going to take a break, step out if needed. If anyone wanted to ask questions during the break, okay, let's take 5 minutes to do questions but also feel free to leave. What's your question?

A question from Adrienne. For very long alt text, being a barrier to quick understanding, some best practice guides have strict caps on character count, often 100 characters, less than a tweet, while others disagree. What was your thought process with navigating this wide range of advice?

Margaret: Thanks. That's a really good point. I cannot speak to the technical assets here. Previous guidance -- shorter is better. That's certainly the case in some cases. It certainly depends on the context, for something like a thumbnail image, 50 images on a screen and you are trying to quickly navigate through then, I'm guessing just like the thumbnail is tiny, it's give you an idea of what is there. The alt text is very simple. It would just say image of a planet, galaxy, that kind of thing, when you're describing something in detail, I know and Tim can probably speak a little bit more to this, a lot of people use their screen readers very fast and they can navigate that information very quickly. We also use navigational -- for the extended descriptions, you can use headers and that type of thing so you can skip around. We definitely begin with the overview statement so you know immediately what this is and you know, do I want to go into the detail? If nothing else, do I listen for a second, do I know what this is? Then I can decide if I want to go into detail. My personal feeling, if it's not there, it's not accessible at all, to anybody. I don't know if that's helping answer the question.

Jen: We have a question in person.

Hi. What changes in your approach --

Patrick: Can you say your name?

Kyle. What changes in your approach for writing alt text subject matter experts and to the general public, what are some of the variables that shift in how you write such alt text?

Margaret: Like your audience is a subject matter expert? Yeah, I think it's similar to any other type of content, you can take shortcuts with terminology, certainly. You would want to, depending on the audience, what they are going to use it for, more detail. If you've got a graph because you need people to use it, you're going to want to go into detail. One of the things we can do with graphs is provide a CSV file, a file of data so people can use that in different ways and make it accessible in other ways, I'm not an expert on that. Some people can put it on a tactile reader. Thank you, Josh is nodding. One of the strategies I use, I try to imagine if my Internet went down and I have a low bandwidth, will do I know or what do I need to know to properly access this information?

Patrick: Any other questions in the room, raise your hand. Oh, a question right over here. Microphone.

Thank you. Would you like me to share the way I personally think -- another good way to write alt text from a blind perspective would be?

Margaret: Absolutely. That would be wonderful, thank you.

No problem. There are a few steps to this. Before you actually write the caption, picture the photo in your mind with your eyes closed. From there, right the alt text. It can be confusing with left and right, I know that.

Margaret: Yes. [Laughs]

And then just reread it a few times, do I need to change it? Just read it a few times before actually taking your next steps.

Margaret: That's really helpful, thank you. My last slide here, I have questions, comments, and suggestions. If you have or have any feedback, we want it, we want to hear what is working and not working. .

Any other questions, comments, or suggestions from the room? Over here?

What are some difficulties you had that prompted you to make this better?

Margaret: We just recognized it was not sufficient, you know? That was one part of a big, big project, to make things more accessible. We just realized we were not able to convey the imagery and the graphics very well.

Patrick: I think there was one more, and then we will break.

Do you ever write it down on physical paper before you write it online? I know with all kinds of writing, people do that, did you do that?

Margaret: Some of us do. In fact, yes, we do write on paper before we write online. Yeah.

Patrick: I think we need to take a break. Some questions in the front row? One more round of applause. [Applause]

Margaret: Thank you so much!

Jen: We have 5 minutes until the next talk and then feel free to get up and get back in here right at noon.